I renew yesterday my subscription. Firemonkey is on version 2 rigth now, when will devexpress release firemonkey components? When will give to Delphi customers a roadmap for this? You take a year to analice, still waiting a response.
FireMonkey support
Answers
Hello,
Thank you for your question.
I am afraid we do not have immediate plans to create components for FireMonkey.
Sadly, we, your Delphi clients, need a roadmap for this. If theres no response for this you are saying we dont care delphi customers. Clear an plain.
Hello,
We care about our Delphi customers. Believe me, we are moving on the FireMonkey route, but some difficulties delay our progress. Providing any ETA at this time is not possible. We appreciate your understanding.
Paulo,
As a subscribed customer, putting my money on your company, and your company not giving a roadmap or ETA is disappointing and unacceptable. I will think again the next time before renew my subscription.
Hi, I agree with Donald. It would be fair against your customers to have a roadmap on this (and other planned developments). All (2) your blogs in regard of FireMonkey are old ones. So please ask your chiefs to let us know, otherwise we will have to look what your competitors (TMS, LMD, …) have on there ETA.
Toni
Donald, Anton,
We understand and value your position. At the same time, I should mention that our progress in this area heavily depends on news from Embarcadero. Since external factors are strongly involved we refrain from publishing any estimates or roadmaps at this stage. This is because our own estimates may be adversely affected by Embarcadero's plans.
The same happens with Microsoft. Any change on Microsoft affects your roadmap. So? Then you wil not adopt any changes on EMBARCADERO because if you don't know how many time it will stand? A year was from the firemonkey release. When do you fill the changes are enough solid? As you see, your statement is ridiculous. If you don't plan to stand supporting EMBARCADERO anymore just make it public to the delphi community (or i can do if you can, no problems at all) and stop accepting money for something you don't want to do.
The vcl libraries have almost zero enhancements in one year. And you refuse to invest developers time to enhance this. make it clear to all delphi users then.
Donald, this document shows that we are still committed to fully supporting and extending the line of our VCL components. I believe that no controls in the VCL market can compare to DevExpress in functionality and stability.
"Stability" is the cornerstone of our products. Yes, we can release an intermediate version to show you our progress. However, I am sure you will not be happy if the API changes with the next release and you need to completely rewrite your code. This is why we prefer to get a stable version of a library from the IDE vendor first to complete our development as the next stage. I believe that you, as a developer, understand our position.
When you will consider Firemonkey enough stable to integrate it inside your libray?
… as soon as we receive a build with an API that will not be dramatically changed in the future and will provide acceptable performance in our cross-platform controls.
I have recently stopped by subscription because of this attitude, as i am no longer prepared to keep paying for something that is not keeping up with Delphi. I agree that Delphi has its problems, but DevExpress has to shit or get off the pot.
Guys,
Thank you for your feedback. We greatly appreciate your comments regarding FireMonkey and your interest in our components for this platform. Even though we are actively investigating it, we cannot make any public announcement now about our plans for the platform. Once we have them set, we'll announce them.
Alastair … I think your comment was "out of order" Firemonkey in XE2 was NOT useable to produce fully functional reliable, fast cross platform business applications. From what I have seen of XE3, I would say the Jury is still out. On this basis I have to agree with the Developer Express team that it is not in anyone's interest to release firemonkey components until the environment is stable … but if and when the stability is there then I would be disapointed if DevExpress was not ready with a new version of the VCL subscription that supported firemonkey.
Mike.
Only putting my money where my mouth is.
just to slow down this discussion a bit:
we build some firemonkey components for our software in xe2, just easy things like a hint, still not available in xe3/fm2.
we checked out xe3 this week, our components, working with xe2, are broken. and that are just easy controls, like a hint.
i can understand DevExpress and their opinion, its hard but its true, fm1 was not a platform to build complex controls, fm2 - don't know.
http://www.delphipraxis.net/169747-brennende-hinweise-fmx-hints-thintmanager-1-2-a.html
I understand the effort needed in order to implement such features in Devexpress from scratch, as would be required in Firemonkey. I also understand that giving the cross compiling with DXTREME platform might be strategic for you guys, but I also think that the Delphi development community is still quite big and Firemonkey is a good platform IMO. Now that Fastreport gave compatibility with Firemonkey, I think that with DX compatibility would be a winning team.
Any news about this topic after the XE4 launch ? Is the support for firemonkey planned in DevExpress roadmap ? Thanks
We have published our Roadmap 2013 at http://www.devexpress.com/Home/Announces/Roadmap-2013.xml
As you can see, Firemonkey support is not planned.
I would echo the requests for the development of FireMonkey components …
The community of Delphi developers in the world is wide, I do not understand your policy to leave behind us all that from the beginning we believed in your professionalism and we have contributed to your success! Even the delay in updating your components in Delphi XE4 is a symptom of your little interest in us Delphi developers that despite everything we still believe in you!
Giuseppe Pizza
Hello,
Thank you for your feedback. We greatly appreciate your comments regarding FireMonkey and your interest in our components for this platform.
First, I should mention that right now we are finishing our code converting and tests for new VCL 12.2.6 that will support XE4. According to plan, we will release this new update within a few days.
As for the FireMonkey support, we continue examining this platform and gathering feedback for it. I welcome everyone who is interested in FireMonkey to comment on your development experience with it here. Answering the following questions would be very much appreciated:
- What kind of applications have you already developed/are developing on FireMonkey?
- What kind of applications do you wish to develop on FireMonkey?
- What "must have" controls do you want us to primarily implement for FireMonkey?
Thanks in advance.
- None. I'm waiting for DevExpress Components FM
- Crm, Erp, Mobile
- First Edit and Grid controls
I'm waiting for Delphi with Andriod. Then I will develop in FireMonkey
BTW, VCL 12.2.6 with support for Delphi XE4 and C++Builder XE4 is out.
We have the VCL Subscription pack, but out of that we mainly use:
ExpressQuantumGrid (extensively)
ExpressPrintingSystem
cxDBTreeList
ExpressBars
NavBar
ExpressMemData
The Skins I don't even install.
- Actually a client for Mac Desktop and another for iPad. All our client app are based on devex so we are stoped here.
- Android when delphi version released, at september.
- ExpressQuantumGrid, ExpressPrintingSystem,ExpressBars,NavBar,ExpressMemData
Skin support can be delayed no problem for me.
Thanks.
To Chris: And what about FireMonkey? Have you developed something on it?
Not yet, our system is quite extensive and tightly integrated, so we won't be able to convert till all the components we use have a FireMonkey version. Dev Express will be the main one. We are going to be replacing ReportPro, QuickReport and QRDesign with FastReports, which does have a Firemonkey version.
Just a 'hello world' application and testing databinding. But no, I don't deploy an application with FireMonkey.
I'm waiting for the release of delphi with Andriod compiler. and also waiting for third part components for FireMonkey Like devexpress. I can't upgrade to firemonkey because I don't have the components. So I develop at the moment only for vcl.
When delphi is comming with andriod, then i will make some app's with FireMonkey. Then I hope to have some components of devexpress. So I will not go to the concurrence (TMS-Software)
- Start developing are we waiting for Your FireMonkey component!!!
- For all our most important applications, the desire is to use technology to make them compatible with FireMonkey cross-platform …
- ExpressQuantumGrid, ExpressPrintingSystem, ExpressBars, NavBar and new components Touch, etc. …
However, we have already developed some applications for iOS with other languages different from Delphi, Delphi for sure if it will come with Android Digitally remastered FireMonkey would be a further boost to the development of cross-platform applications …
Thanks for the update with support for Delphi XE4 …
Giuseppe Pizza
- What kind of applications have you already developed/are developing on FireMonkey?
Waiting for DevEx components to start. Done some trivial test development. - What kind of applications do you wish to develop on FireMonkey?
Point of Sale. Hospitality. Retail - What "must have" controls do you want us to primarily implement for FireMonkey?
Grid, TreeList, Scheduler (and Edit controls of course)
Mike Norayr Monjian
Thanks Paulo,
It appears DevExpress are willing to make an entirely different (but strangely familiar) mistake this time.
I read the road-map. The first section speaks about mobile and how it is the "now" thing, how there will be more mobile devices than PCs by the end of this year and how both Embarcadero and Microsoft are pursuing this avenue. Here's the difference:
You are backing the MS product, despite its tiny share of the market compared to Android and iOS (reminiscent of the Kylix/Linux position 15 years ago), and hedging your bets on a generic web based solution to cover the major share of mobile developer needs.
Meanwhile Embarcadero have learned from past mistakes and have taken a new path:
* Combining all cross-platform development into the same IDE used for VCL development
* Making the new paradigm applicable to Windows as well as all other OSes.
* Targeting the largest single competitor to Windows on the PC instead of a fragmented Linux market
* Targeting the two largest shares of the mobile market first: iOS and Android
* Supporting and improving this platform over 3 revisions of Delphi (and a forth by September)
* Building relationships with the Apple and Google
I know you got burned with Kylix, and I am sorry you did. Now you risk getting burned the other way. While you are playing chicken with your developer community (who will develop in FireMonkey first?) you will find some other company will take the risk and you will lose out to them. Here's what I see:
You are absolutely correct, the growing market is mobile, but not MS Mobile. MS missed the boat with mobile by turning up late and mimicking iOS - I mistakenly got a Windows Phone 7 and have regretted it ever since - now I have Android (there are 10 Android devices in my home) and will NOT go back to MS despite having used Windows CE devices for more than 10 years prior. I am interested ONLY in Surface Pro which runs Windows 8 Pro - i.e. I can already target it. So really unless MS comes up with a game changer you are once again backing a dead horse, it just happens to be MS Mobile this time.
On the other hand Embarcadero are doing everything right this time, and their timing couldn't be better for me. I have already been approached by two separate teams at work to develop in-house applications for iOS and Android for a total of 5 products (each targeting both platforms), and this is likely to expand (to put it in context - I currently support 4 Windows applications). Windows development will be affected too because I can reuse my code base to have it target Windows as well - the only drawback is leaving DevExpress controls behind. These apps will be written in FireMonkey, the question is: will they be written with DevExpress controls? My development schedule currently has them pegged to start development Q1 2014; I hope you are ready by then.
P.S. In the game of chicken: I have already written one app in FireMonkey (3D), already started writing my first (personal) FireMonkey mobile app, and the app scheduled to start development in November 2013 (replacing one I am currently supporting) will likely be FireMonkey too.
Hi
Thanks to all of you who've replied on this subject. We certainly appreciate the feedback.
We got our start with Delphi and the VCL and we've continued to support the platform. We actually have a lot of people here who love Delphi, myself included.
Just to clarify Scott, our bad experience with CLX was as much a function of market-share as it was implementation. Creating cross-platform components on a problematic platform is not easy. It cost our R&D team dearly and delayed release of ExpressQuantumGrid 4 by at least 9 months. We sold less than 5 copies of the cross-platform version. I'm sure you'll agree, that's not very good.
The question is not whether mobile is important. Of course it.
Scott, our focus is not MS Mobile. Yes, we released DXTREME and it was build for Visual Studio developers, but it's a true cross-platform framework so you can target iOS Android and Windows Phone from the same codebase.
We also release PhoneJS and ChartJS - phonejs.devexpress.com and chartjs.devexpress.com for non-Microsoft IDE JavaScript developers. So we get the importance of mobile :-)
We would be happy to work with Embarcadero and get real numbers from them on product usage and determine whether it's something we ought to pursue. You see Scott, with Kylix, we had no idea. We just assumed. We cannot operate that way.
In the past, Borland/Inprise et al, have been very guarded about facts. I simply cannot risk doing business that way. I need specifity. Once we get it, we'll plan accordingly and share with you and all of our Delphi C++Builder customers our plans.
I hope that makes sense. Feel free to email me if you have additional questions: rayn@devexpress.com
I would appreciate if the DevExpress not develop anything for FireMonkey. The VCL is already at a disadvantage in relation to the resources available to .Net. Imagine then if DevExpress decides to make the controls for FireMonkey too. Surely all projects VCL will delay further. Focus on VCL, it is wonderful, and it is still far from achieving the resources you have provided for. Net.
Rodrigo +1 I agree, we need more VCL controls i.e. New Charts, 3D Charts, Metro buttons, Metro skin, a Dashboard Control we need some of these controls porting from the .NET components before focusing on a new platform.
Rodrigo, Dareen, this will not happen. Devexpress money is on dot net , they have no resources for delphi and dont care delphi developers. Just check how much grow dot net and how much grow VCL subscription components… And think VCL subscriptions is OLDER than dot net. Which is the justification for this ? Dont care VCL subscriptors, we are marginals here. FM lack of response is same boat.
Are you guys using FM for commercial development? We prototyped with XE2 and it was not viable. Initial investigations using XE3 hit some snags and we put it on hiatus. Much like Kylix which was never compatible with a current Linux version, or .NET versions that were perpetually at least a minor version behind MS - is FM ready enough RIGHT NOW to become a real tool for mobile development, and does it have enough users to warrant 3rd party support? I can understand DevExpress wanting to see how this is playing out before they commit resources.
Respect to the crew at DevExpress, peace.
Regards,
Hamilton
Donald: You have just disparaged our hard-working VCL team without knowing anything about them or what they do. That I won't accept. They're doing some stellar work, providing some great support for VCL (for which, unless you've been living under a rock and haven't noticed, Embarcadero aren't exactly setting the world on fire with changes, fixes, enhancements), and readying a great major release later on this month.
As Ray alluded to, we're monitoring FM usage (as much as we can, since we're not privy to Embarcadero sales figures) and commentary. At present, although the XE4 mobile concept looks interesting, we're not persuaded with either the demand or the product that we should invest some major resources, time and money to support. You may have a different view, and I accept that, but we have to build a strong business case to pursue another opportunity, and we're not convinced yet that Delphi mobile is it.
Julian,
Glad to see you here, finally. Sometimes one have to kick the king , rigth?
Lets leave alone the mobile and FM case for a momento and concntrate on VCL.
I dont live under a rock, im a just yoru customer… Im a devexpress subscriptor and see release after release no enhancements on VCL. Any proposal get a response of kind: we dont plan to implement on the middle time, sorry. Thats is all a VCL sunscriptor get today from Devexpress. And, again, just check the GROWING level of functionality for DOT NET pair. That is all i need to say to made my point: VCL is just a side of your business and will there no enhancement there in a near future.
Now, about FM, im forced to think Devexpress dont take that boat because dont care FM have any success. They care to sell own options for mobile development. Again the facts made my point, dont need to know internals of devexpress.
Best regards.
Donald - i understand where you are coming from but it's not devexpress's job to push FM/delphi its upto embarcadero, I accept .net is a more popular platform and probably has 10x more subscribers than VCL hence gets new features quicker, I don't like it but I understand their business priorities. I think they are doing a pretty good job considering the size of the VCL Team.
You might be onto something about the cross platform mobile development, but again it's upto embarcadero to persuade them and us to use FM - I certainly have no plans to use FM from what I saw in XE3 there are better solutions out there, haven't seen XE4 yet though.
Donald: I really don't know what to say to this: " Im a devexpress subscriptor and see release after release no enhancements on VCL." It's just so wrong. Again you disparage the VCL team, and again I call you on it. For an example (and I'll admit, a major one): Server mode. Absolutely brilliant feature introduced in 12.2 that no one else in VCL-land has, totally exclusive to DevExpress, and it's being enhanced out the wazoo in the first major release this year, 13.1 (due this month).
And this one just made me laugh: "Glad to see you here, finally. Sometimes one have to kick the king , rigth?" The reply a few comments above this one is from Ray, our CEO and my boss. You got a reply from the main man.
As for FM: look, if you need FM support, there are companies out there that who have such support. Good on them; maybe they'll have the last laugh when FM takes off (or maybe it already has). Maybe it'll be the other way round too, who knows. What I do know is that, at this point in time, we do not see the market there that would repay major investments of time, money and resources on our behalf. And as Darren rightfully says, it is not our job to convince people that FM is viable, it's Embarcadero's; we have more than enough on our plate to convince people that we have the best user interface controls.
Cheers, Julian
Julian,
Im glad you have fun with this. Almost one of two parts find it funny.
Will all the respect it deserves i dont know who is the devexpress CEO, your boss. I know you, an old turbo pascal user, long time delphi user, as me, and that is the reason i want a serious response from you. Again, sorry CEO, but i dont care about you, no ofense. You Julian, is the main reason many delphi users are here, and you know that. Devexpress born thanks to delphi users, and also you know it. We also deserves respect and support, as being your loyalty customers. Thats all.
Best regards.
Donald,
I feel you are a little out of line, please stop.
Julian and the VCL Team,
I've been a DevExpress user for going on 14 years now. My current software uses most of the DevExpress library especially the skin library which gives my application and my users an experience they wouldn't get anywhere else.
I have seen that having a DevExpress subscription to be more valuable than any other subscription we have second to none, we don't even keep software assurance on Delphi. We feel like DevExpress is constantly is delivering worthwhile VCL enhancements that make our software continually more competitive. Thank you for that.
I would personally like to see Embarcedero invest in DevExpress in order to facilitate FireMonkey support more easily. DevExpress once converted much of their library to support Kylix (Delphi for Linux) which turned out to be a huge investment that was not at profitable. So I understand the hesitance in making the effort.
I personally feel that it is Embarcadero's responsibility to ensure the success of FireMonkey which includes healthy 3rd party support. I'm currently sitting listening to David I. talk about XE4.
For me there is little benefit in the Mac OS support, after all most mac's can run windows at the same time.
Where I personally think Firemonkey will excel is in Mobile development especially once Android support is available. DevExpress controls are second to none. I trust DevEx more than any of our other third party vendors, and frankly more than I trust stock VCL.
Perhaps DevExpress would consider using their amazing design skills to create a small batch of mobile friendly controls to test the waters to see what kind of interest there is?
Either way, I understand and thank you for all of your hard work.
Andrew Love
Andrew,
I fell the same off you, way off, but i will not ask youfor stop it. Is a free world.
That prase say it all: "For me there is little benefit in the Mac OS support, after all most mac's can run windows at the same time." Sure, a mac user will install windows on a mac to run your applications. Keep dreaming…
I would be very glad to see DevEx Printing and Grids components for FireMonkey. Absence of such is a show-stopper for me: I just don't have resources for "FireMonkeying" around creating these.
Unrelated: the tone of discussion is unacceptable, it should be moderated to remove nonsense. :)
My subscription is about to expire. Theres any roadmap for the next year? I will not renew my subscription if theres no enhancements on delphi devepxress libraries, this includes FM and mobile, off course.
Hello German,
Although we do not have a Roadmap for 2014, we will surely develop our VCL products further (controls for classical Delphi and C++ Builder applications). We have many developers working on our VCL controls and the team is constantly growing. So, I believe that new magnificent features will be released in 2014.
As for the Firemonkey support in 2014, I am afraid that I do not have any news on it.
Now delphi xe5 is out with android support, any plan for fm support ?
FM support is not planned for 2013.
Ok, no FM support for 2013.
But are there some plans for 2014!
We have not discussed our plans for FM support in 2014 yet.
Hi, all!
I'm just watching the Embarcadero's Delphi XE5 presentations. Having DevEx components for cross-platform would be nice, but if we dive into Android, I clearly don't see any urgent need for the FM version of DevEx VCL controls. Why? Well, I might be a fifty years short of using a wooden spoon, but I haven't seen a notebook, nor a desktop computer, runing Android. Tablets and smartphones's screens are simply too small to allow DevEx components perform as they do on bigger monitors. And although I do use a 10.1" tablet, I cannot imagine myself running around with a poster sized tablet in the armpit …
We develop software targeting medical services, and doctors being mobile visiting patients, tablet software is on high demand. It is mostly concentrated on the ability of data collection on foot, and as a fast patient file display application. Since the doctors are mostly Mac fan base, we will surely have the need for cross platform development, and I believe the DevEx team will be there with a solution, when those needs arise.
A little off-topic, but anyhow - the new server mode - will there be an option to use Devart's *DAC libraries as data connectors? I find the DevEx / Devart components the winning combination … :)
A very BIG THANK YOU on your EXCELLENT work!!!
(and that's from our users, too!)
Hello Uros,
Thank you for your kind words. Great comment!
Regarding Devart components in Server Mode, please review the UniDAC in Server Mode Knowledge Base article and the SDAC Views in Server Mode ticket. I am sure you will find helpful information there.
In regard to Davor…
The screen size for phones is a very good point; and as I finally get around to seriously looking at/working on a true cross platform app; It's not immediately clear where DX adds value on the small screen sizes of "today"
However, as one scales up with the new higher res 5"+ displays, Galaxy S4, Note etc…then suddenly DX components start to be usable; and on a tablet like an ipad quite usable. What about a few years down the road? Will big screens come to dominate?
Where DX is useful for FireMonkey is with OSX applications; and this is really where I'd want it. That being, said FireMonkey, does all those platforms regardless of whether you really need a DXGrid on those things.
In some ways, though, some of the bigger concerns/questions with FireMonkey are raised by a jilted Delphi person turned .Net junkie in Denmark (google it), who says FireMonkey gets it wrong in trying to force the same interface on all devices. I.e. it's a serious violation of device/platform look and feel. (I'm guessing he doesn't like skinning libraries)
And despite his obviously Delphi-Ex point of view; he does have some points.
A direct port of the DX VCL components to firemonkey is probably not that productive; do you really want an Office 2013 Ribbon Form on OS X? Maybe… On your ipad? Doubt it. Phone? Won't fit. So, developing a DXFireMonkey would probably require some serious rethinking of what components are important and what the look and feel should be/what the skinning options are/should be.
Clearly, the elephant in the room is the Grid; that is what everyone really wants. That one component is worth as much as the rest; on a current phone? there are alternatives, but for tablets and Macs and Windows; it's a must.
Charting would also be incredibly huge to have on all platforms; as would guages.
The NavBar of course; the treelist both critical. And again, not for phones: but a docking library; docking panels on a Mac would be great. is it authentic to the OS X UI? Not so much, but tough; it's useful.
The Bars suite would probably want some serious rethinking for iOS and Android; they need it; but ribbons wouldn't be good; you'd need to go back to the more traditional bars and menus.
You'd want some new things like a PageSlider–guys? I've been wanting a page slider in either DX VCL or DXperience for ever…I just love them…(think about the sliding multi-colum view that Finder has…I want that!!! TMS PageSlider does it for FireMonkey. I want my DX version in all spaces…
Anyway; where DX really ads value is when you toss in a database and client/server models. Up until XE3 at the earliest it wasn't there; and in my book XE4 and XE5 are the first serious attempts to bring the database to the firemonkey, phone/tablet/mac space. We now have IBLite and SQLLite for local applications, and FireDAC everywhere else…
Prior to that, other than json DB's you were talking webapps for database driven work, and for that, DX has a whole suite of .net tools and then some.
But now; we can start seriously doing client server on a phone, and local databases. Suddenly, in my mind we can now write "real applications" for these devices that aren't games.
I think this fact should be a mind changer in helping DX move towards FireMonkey. We are now getting the horsepower and resources on smaller devices and it's really starting to take off on the Mac as well. We are now getting real C/S and local db apps on Macs and not just parallels/fusion windows apps.
So on that front; I'd make an argument that until very recently there wasn't a huge need on these platforms for what DX brings best to the table; fun as it might be to have it. But the need is now showing up; and I think finally real/useable with XE5.
I.e. now is the time to "seriously" start thinking about it.
Right now everyone has left TMS alone in the FireMonkey space; it's going to give them an edge, where previously they'd been weak. The way things are going, I'm thinking one doesn't want to give them much more than 1 more year alone in the space.
Unless Firemonkey pulls a Kylix.
But…I don't think it will. The big huge reason is; at no point in time was there ever that big of an end user base for Linux based desktop applications. Period. It was a pipe dream, at best. Turns out, that the end user desktop version of Linux was really BSD and it has an Aqua interface. It's called OS X. Borland (or whatever they called themselves then) really jumped the gun.
On the other hand; there is a real and growing base of OS X end users, particularly in the corporate space. I was at a TDWI presentation by an IBM guy who was on a Mac notebook; IBM's internal Systems team supports Mac's!
And no one can deny there is an end user base for Android and iOS devices.
On the other hand; if you want another Kylix…try WinRT. Sales are as disappointing as any Microsoft Mobile product ever.
MS just can't get mobile right. They change their mobile platform every 18 months or so…it's nuts; no consistency, and no one is buying it (and I mean that quite literally)
For my two cents; money spent developing for WinRT is much better spent on targeting Android and iOS…alhtough I recognize that in the .net space, adding WinRT is much easier than adding FireMonkey to the DX VCL line.
Anyway, just some recent thoughts of mine.
I also like the idea to have one code base for Windows and Mac. But the FireMonkey framework is currently too buggy, to create real application with it. As everybody knows, who follows some Delphi blogs, EMB is not very good in fixing bugs or listening to it's community. Therefore, I understand and support the DevEx Team with his decision not to support FMX in the near future. I personally feel, that the FMX framework needs a lot of re-design, with some API changes.
TOO SLOW and TOO BIG.
It's time for EMB, to convince us that FMX is a rock solid, high performance cross-platform framework!!!
Guys, we highly appreciate your feedback! If you are currently developing a FireMonkey based application, please email us so that we can understand what you've built so far and what tools we can provide to you.
Alex,
As somebody point, i think the main need is for mac osx applications. We need to migrate a full application working on windows to OSX and we need devex editors and grids, basically. Without that the app have not the same flexibility and functionality the user see on windows.
In the present theres more mac than windows in USA, Firemonkey is a excellent option to develop for mac, so why don't just jump into this boat? FM is here for stay, and it improve with every release.
BTW, yes i renew my subscription . I hope you guys work on FM subscription model soon. You can consider add some additional cost to VCL and a competitive upgrade for customers of vcl subscription also, don't you think?
Let's face the facts. Users bound/used to the VCL still benefit over Winforms from their perspective. Imo, since I know both options - in case of Devexpress components come into play VCL can be preferred safely. The web part is covered via ASP.net a good add-on from a controls perspective, not from the perspective of full coverage. It simply replaces what was provided for ISAPI + VCL years ago. We are talking in terms of decade(s).
Since EMB do not even intend to provide Office like controls devexpress is a valuable add-on still, but given the argument 'can compare' to or outperforms Winforms, I think a more accurate offering in that area is desirable especially regarding the time frame. That what Donald very likely wanted to express. Maybe he is looking back 10 years - then there is a gap but that gap does come from the times of Delphi 2005 - 2010. That's a long period of just somehow keeping the existing components alive while the underlying technology was subject to groundbreaking restructuring in order to keep it from rotting. We can definitly say, the VCL team at Devexpress does understand the developers need and great sometimes outstanding support has been provided over the years. And that's still 4 - 5 years out of 7 or 8.
It's no good idea to receive things provided in Winforms almost 1-2 years later. The situation is very similar to Winforms vs. WPF. VCL vs. Firemonkey is similar. Neither fish, nor flesh, nor good red herring. That's Windows.
The question is, does FMX already provide the potential to go beyond what's possible. No for several reasons. One example see attachment - look at the characters. Let EMB do their job first.
Also in the area of .net there are strong parts and others that are a matter of tase. ASP.net MVC. Again it's a matter of taste and preference.
Michael,
Are you a FM user? Or just try some things, as the screen shoot you show? we have real world app, for that reason i think you have no idea when yo say: FM don't have the potential. If you don't like the model, is ok. But please, the bug you shows… who care! We can run native app on OSX and works just fine. Period. Thats the potential.
We can't use your vcl component b\c lack of right to left support , i hope that if you decide to go with fm line to do best although the framework does not support this feature but they are keeping say it is in our roadmap
@Donald. Oh, no. What more do you need to see? That's simply a FMX screen I gave a try when XE4 came shipped. Afterwards I uninstalled FMX on that machine. Since XE3 the problem remained. That's on ATI graphics card. That's a Radeon 5670. This Graphic Card is so cheap and widely used here in silent PCs together with AMD.
The same thing shows a clear font on Nvidia graphic cards. Even changing the theme does no help - somehow improves but the effect is still here.
Do you think that a Devexpress FM component library enabling office software does have Macs and Nvidia only client machines as the target. In an office you don't have the latest stuff and cheap computers too. I never said FMX would not work … at the moment Win 8.1 or Win 9 with the direct boot into non Metro just Desktop will lead to VCL… for 10 years or more.
On the Mac I also don't have that problem and hope for improvements. It's not my problem because I simply don't live from developing software.
It does not make a difference if the application is complex or not in that case. How about the support for the new ATI chipsets … The latest revision start to support DirectX somehow more or less (another example from the high end league). And the new touch enabled Lenovo laptops use that chipset. I don't complain about the FM but honestly I totally understand that devexpress cannot so simply bind resources and cannot so simply invest until a certain basic support on every machine out in reality can be guaranteed. Devexpress will very likely provide something similar that does make sense in an office scenario.
I am deeply impressed about EMBs achievements especially when we look at the FM. In the context of an office style application … In less biased worlds people say, 'Thank you Michael for bringing that to our attention'. Simply could reply, that a chipset that was designed to support Open GL in a first palce and the strategy used is another one than we have chosen, because it's the most likely future direction.
FM user … yes. I simply use FM on the Mac together with Devart wire protocols. That worked. From the perspective of graphics FM is great and simple even for a hobbyist like me. I am not playing around with FM and install an application on old computers almost found nowhere in order to prove something. It's more than obvious the devexpress is an MSShop so we cannot simply discuss of the the Windows scope.
@Michael, As i say the potential of FM is allow me to release for MAC. Period. On that market DEVEX only can shine with Delphi.
I wanted to throw my two cents into the discussion since DevEx needs an honest assessment of what's on our minds to make future decisions in regard to this.
I don't see DevEx as a "mobile market" toolset. It's too large, too robust, and way too feature rich. I have coded several mobile apps in their native toolchains (Java/Android ObjC/iOS) and while I like the idea of FireMonkey for Mobile development, -in theory- and will try it, it isn't something I really care about one way or another…
However, having said that. What I DO care about, and would pay a premium for is being able to code for Windows/Mac at the same time where the true power of DevEx can and will always shine.
So, if DevEx were to support FireMonkey, I would pay for that, and it would drive even further loyalty from me, but NOT for the mobile market. Anyone who thinks the QGrid and supporting components have a place in the mobile market, need to remind themselves that the mobile market is still primarily for phones and small tablets where that power would just get confusing and in the way.
I simply would not renew my subscription to Dev. Exprss without the FireMonkey support. In fact, I'm strongly leaning toward [redacted]. Dev. Express has gotten itself out of the market; for one thing, they are bundling many features together with no option for picking and choosing what one would need, i.e., $1,499 For VCLs! That puts me out of their market. I have used some of their products for quite a few years - no doubt of their quality! Sorry to leave them!
So DevExpress have no interest to release an FMX version of it's VCL product?
We do not have plans to develop FireMonkey components in 2014. However, this does not mean that we are not interested in this platform at all. Perhaps, FMX controls will be implemented with our future builds.
Look at the message thread of 2 years ago, Paulo with all due respect you are FULL OF IT
Donald Shimoda 2 years ago
Sadly, we, your Delphi clients, need a roadmap for this. If theres no response for this you are saying we dont care delphi customers. Clear an plain.
Paulo (DevExpress Support) 2 years ago
Hello,
We care about our Delphi customers. Believe me, we are moving on the FireMonkey route, but some difficulties delay our progress. Providing any ETA at this time is not possible. We appreciate your understanding.
Now 3 weeks ago
Paulo (DevExpress Support)3 weeks ago
We do not have plans to develop FireMonkey components in 2014. However, this does not mean that we are not interested in this platform at all. Perhaps, FMX controls will be implemented with our future builds.
So it took you 2 years to arrive to the road map of doing nothing in 2014! Do you think we are that naive ?
At least try to give is a grid a, tree some editors to port our app to the map
Do not cry if a large portion of you VCL users do not pay the maintenance this year and use this money to go to TMS, I will be one of them
Too bad till now you were the best company I knew for customer support in a large sense…
Philippe: I would be grateful if you keep a professional tone in your comments. Paulo is one of our excellent tech support team members, and as such is not responsible for determining whether or not we, as a company, decide to pursue development of a library of controls that support FireMonkey. That task is down to those of us in the management team. Focusing your dissatisfaction on Paulo is unwelcome. I'd also point out that if you expanded all the comments, you'd get a better sense of the history of this support ticket as it includes comments from our president as well as me.
Over the past few years, we and the VCL team have monitored the progress of FM as a viable run-time to see whether it was worth our while to expend time, resources, and money on developing an equivalent to DevExpress VCL. In fact, there are two FMs to consider: that for the Mac and that for mobile (in essence the main thrust of XE4 and XE5). For the latter, the answer is no at this stage: first, we already have a successful mobile HTML5 solution that we are expanding upon; and second, thinking "native" compilation, our efforts would best be expended on Xamarin -- it has the best ability to satisfy the majority of our customers.
So that leaves the possibility of supporting FM for the Mac. For 2014 we decided to concentrate again on VCL: there is plenty to do there to help customers in that market and we do not have the resources to attack both at the same time.
Now, you may disagree with this business strategy and that's fine. After all, you have your own business strategy that you're following. If those two strategies don't mesh, so be it.
Cheers, Julian
Ideally, I would like to have the DevExpress library for FM. Ideally, I would like to have all the functionnalities of VS components in my VCL. Whathever, In this world, having a strong and robust VCL devexpress library is the best to keep stability in a huge application. As a standalone developper, Rewriting my application would take years. I want to thank the team, To Maintain tools for vcl. It was a fair choice when many abandoned delphi in the hard years.
As far as I can tell, FM in XE5 is still a half-baked (edit boxes still have dancing text issues) library with dog slow performance for anything remotely as complex as the current VCL components. Resizing windows of the fast-report FM designer makes me cringe as how slow the performance still is four iterations in. I wouldn't waste my resources on it either.
There are mixed messages coming out of DevExpress currently, having announced that only XE compilers will get new VCL controls i.e. effectively forcing people using D2007 & D7 to upgrade or drop the subscription; they are then NOT creating controls for one of the main features of the later XE versions?
Not sure how many people use the older compilers; but it seems an odd decision.
@Darren
right, I'm VERY disappointed with devex plans of dropping d2007 support and most likely will stop renewing my subscription
Julian : it is clear that you are Not going this direction at least for 2014 and you we will concentrate on VCL, OK we are waiting long time for basic feature that is Right to left support. can you state clearly what is the status of it?
Everyone: this is a support ticket about DevExpress supporting FireMonkey. It is not about RTL support or D7/D2007 support. There are other tickets for those. Let's not muddy the thread topic here.
Cheers, Julian
Julian,
I agree.
I know devexpress library is very close to windows, but please reconsider some solution for mac osx market.
Best regards.
I would agree with previous posters on this being worrisome.
Not having plans to follow the Embarcadero development plan, which *obviously* is moving away from VCL, and especially after such a long time of Firemonkey availability, implies not having plans to continue to support Delphi in general.
Of course there are more problems with making a Firemonkey branch than just running the VCL-to-Firemonkey migration support tools on the project, but keeping paying customers costs.
So the question, to me at least, have now changed into:
Should users of Delphi start looking for alternatives? We(and those considering buying your product) need some kind of clear concrete statement.
Nicklas
Thanks for the feedback.
I have a question for you: my viewpoint is that there are two separate paths to take with FireMonkey. There is the desktop path – in other words, targeting Windows and Mac – and there’s the mobile path – targeting mobile devices, including iOS and Android. The first possibility is relatively “simple” for us: they are both desktop environments, both use the same sized screens (roughly), and so “converting” from one to the other is just a case of understanding the differences between the VCL and the FireMonkey “APIs”. And, I suppose, understanding how to access the native APIs as well (although we did a lot of (wasted) work on that for Kylix).
The other path – and this path is completely different UI-wise – is new and therefore requires more resources, time and sheer work. We’d have to bring in our graphics designers as well. Therein lies the issue: the other path also runs parallel to our other efforts with regard to mobile, viz HTML5/JS and Xamarin (that is, C# and .NET). Like it or not, it makes business sense for us to target the bigger market.
Anyway, my question to you is: what are you looking for in FireMonkey controls? Desktop? Mobile? Both? If I did the “You have only $100 to spend towards our development” question, where would you put it to maximize the benefits to you?
By the way, my answer to your question is this: if you need to write in Delphi to produce mobile or Mac apps now then you’d be strongly mistaken to wait and see what DevExpress may or may not do in the future. You should purchase what’s available elsewhere now.
Cheers, Julian
Julian,
Glad to se you finally have interest on customers opinion about this topic. Oh wait, i have to ask: the question was directed to Nicklas only or to any customer in this topic, including the one who started this?
Anyway, i will offer my opinion and you can then take my words and do whatever you want with this.
My opinion is clear: Devexpress for mobile market have no sense at all. Focus on Desktop 100%. Why? because devexpress shine historically on desktop, hop desktop. And because adding a additional layer to the already slowly solution to mobile from delphi will guarantee a epic fail.
So, if i have 100 i spend it on mac desktop components, all the way long.
Hope that helps.
I would also say : 100% Desktop
Julian,
I agree totally with the others, 100% desktop.
The grid components and complex GUI stuff like that simply doesn't fit on a tiny mobile screen.
Maybe I am old-fashioned, but what other controls than those that already exist would be interesting on mobile?
Anyway, if you go the Firemonkey road, it will be easy to just make mini versions of stuff if you'd would like to.
I mean devexpress component are more than just huge grids, but also dataset components and such, which could be used as well. Not that a little bit of refactoring would hurt.
With regards to your answer, it appears to me that the Embarcadero long-term goal is to drop VCL in favor of Firemonkey.
I mean, honestly, what are the reasons to keep it except from backwards compatibility really.
I was also hesitant at first, but to me, firemonkey bares very little resemblance with earlier failures.
Also, Delphi is now even stronger geared towards GUI development, which would seem a good fit for you. Personally, I think that their recent focus on mobile and front-end is the smartest thing they've done in years. Why even keep up the back-end fight? I mean, how could they ever match the forward motion of the *huge* C#/Java/Python etc communities?
But native GUI:s and GUI-based IDEs are a completely different matter, ask anyone(like me) that has made GUI:s with QT, Kivy or similar. It takes companies to keep a form-designer-based IDE:s together.
And it *is* faster to develop in those.
Therefore, Embarcadero have a good chance to get some market share there.
So yes, again, I would agree. :-)
Other company is working on "DevExpress looking" grid for Firemonkey:
http://www.devmachines.com/firedatagrid-overview.html
100% Desktop - a lot of clients are asking for a Mac desktop version as well as Windows desktop.
100% desktop and main focus on the QuantumGrid to be able to use it on OSX as well
100% desktop. The DevExpress team is not able to pay attention necessary to VCL like they do for .net, and you want FireMonkey, forget it!
Unfortunately I have to agree with Rodrigo. I looks like there is way more activity in terms of development, tutorials, videos (you name it) on the .NET side of things. It would be great if VCL/Firemonkey would receive a similar attention but I acknowledge that you have a business to run and have to focus on ROI - still somewhat sad as you grew VCL.
Another thing that is sad is that you discontinued CodeRush for Delphi (where it originally comes from) despite the fact that the Open Tools API is stable since quite some releases
I really hate igniting old conversations, one for which there is a large consensus of porting VCL components to Firemonkey for desktop.
Today I was tasked with porting a windows desktop app that uses the Devexpress .NET components extensively, very specifically the pivotgrid, which in my opinion is the best on the market, no competition.
My first though was eeek, but then i remembered from my days as a Delphi developer (again a DevExpress customer) that a VCL version of the PivotGrid was available.
I do find it a tiny bit disappointing that this only works with the VCL at the moment and not available as a minimum for the desktop OSX.
But after reading through all the emotional comments here, I still have to agree with Julian, Kylix was a disaster for everyone, it didn't deliver on what it promised and DevExpress were one of the very few venders who whole heartedly supported it and as mentioned above less than 5 licences were bought, there apprehension is more than justified.
For me its back to the drawing board and see what is available from other venders to plug the gap, but in no way should this detract from the utterly amazing work that is done by DevExpress in the VCL and in .NET which in reality is 2 completely different platforms.
> For me its back to the drawing board and see what is available from other venders to plug the gap, …
From my earlier post: http://www.devmachines.com/firedatagrid-overview.html
seems to have a released version. a demo for OSX is available.
If you find other vendors, please post a message. I'm searching too.
Wow! Seems good! And just use 300??? Dev machines 1 devexpress 0…
We've used DevExpress components in our suite of applications for many years with great success.
Our customers increasingly asks us to migrate our apps to tablet platforms (iOS and Android).
We've been developping some apps for iPad since XE2 platform and we can say that the Firemonkey platform has stabilized enough to do serious work on it.
Please, reconsider the migration of your grid components suite for the Firemonkey platform.
Unfortunately there is an acute shortage of Firemonkey 3rd party components and DevEx is sadly missed in this area.
No to whip a dead horse but have there been any further changes with regard to Dev Express release a FM suite of components? The company I work for is considering buying a license but I cant justify it if we cannot support the latest compiler.
As a lot of the developers here are saying, I don't expect you to support the mobile platforms straight away but some progress on the desktop side of things would be great! And believe me, no one expects you to migrate your entire library over-night, but some edits and maybe your grid would be a fantastic start and boost Delphi developers confidence in your product.
It is perfectly understandable that you would rather focus on where the "money" is in terms of development tools, but Firemonkey is gaining traction and if it does take off will this not be a huge portion of the market that your company is missing out on? We all know Kylix was a mess, but Firemonkey looks like it could go the distance.
Until we announce something officially, like a beta or an actual product, please assume that we will not be supporting FireMonkey. If you need some control or set of controls for the desktop on Windows and Mac now or in the near future, DO NOT WAIT FOR US to release something; we may very well not do so. Go for what available now, not some vaporware that may only exist as some extrapolation from some comment I happened to make. Although we continue to test FireMonkey to monitor its capabilities (APIs, performance, etc), we are not currently developing any controls/frameworks/libraries for it.
As for mobile, you only have to look to what we're actively doing in the .NET and HTML5/JS space. It is very unlikely that we will spread/dilute our mobile message to include another development platform entirely.
Cheers, Julian
I forgot to add that of course we support the latest compiler. We support all compilers in the XE series, including XE7. For VCL, naturally.
Cheers, Julian
Julian,
as a Devex customer since 2003 I am surprised by your rather harsh comment. From my point of view it is the obligation of a CTO to listen to his customers and to address there needs properly. Nobody has asked for a magic solution but you have to acknowledge that the Object pascal world has moved on.
From the efforts of DevEx it is obvious that you would like to force your customers to go the .NET/HTML5/JS ways as you put more efforts into this than into the Object Pascal side of things (at least from a customers perspective).
Please no more Kylix comments, we all read them.
Maybe you could think about a poll of your VCL customers who would be willing to pay an extra $$$ to start a FMX Grid which would allow many of us to work with your extraordinary components at least won Win AND OSX desktops. (not talking about mobile)
Just my 5¢ - would be nice to see some positive future from here
Gernot
The summary: No plans for Firemonkey, no roadmap for VCL anymore.
Ronald
Gernot
I wouldn't consider my previous comment as harsh necessarily, just blunt. The main reason is that I may have, in the past, inadvertently led customers to believe that FireMonkey controls were just around the corner, when in fact they are not. So I wanted to be quite firm in saying, if you need them, don’t wait on us. It is not a question of “forcing” customers to go one way or another: you ascribe to us more power than we’ve ever had and if that were so we’d all be on some Caribbean island somewhere by now.
As CTO, I have to, along with the rest of the DevExpress management team, listen to feedback from customers and our own teams, look at what is happening in our marketplace (which, to be blunt again, is an order of magnitude – or more – from .NET than VCL), what our major competitors are doing, and make business decisions that will benefit the majority of our customers and the company. We cannot satisfy all of our customers all the time – sure, we’d like to – but no company can.
So, for the time being, in the Delphi/C++Builder marketplace we’ve decided to continue creating and updating the best VCL controls, skins, and features in the space. And because that’s the way the team works these days, we grab the best stuff from the .NET teams and convert it to Delphi. Hence if you want a “roadmap” of what to expect from the VCL team, look to what we’ve delivered for WinForms, WPF, XAML. Touch features, check. Map control, check. Spreadsheet, check. Server mode, check. In 14.2? Wait and see; I dare say we’ll be talking about it pretty soon since we’re less than 2 months away from release.
Cheers, Julian
Julian,
your statement is much appreciated. The spill-over from .NET to VCL is nice. But (there is always a but 8-) )…
- Developer Express was once at the forefront of Object Pascal technology (last TECHNICAL award dates back to 2004 if I am correct)
- took away CodeRush (one of the gratest Delphi tools of all times - I was a customer before it was bought by DevEx)
- and hat its own road-map for Object pascal, not just a spill-over.
A lot of that entreprneurial spirit seams to be lost (blunt from my side) which I consider a sad Development and the VCL components and their customers are reduced to pure cash-cows. This is a disappointing feeling from a customer perspective and to a certain extent an abuse of a monopoly in the VCL world.
And if spill-over from .NET to VCL is possible, then why is it impossible from VCL to FMX? It may have differences and a different framework set but still the same language
Cheers gernot
Pretty clear Julian, thanks for your response.
For the res of us, people, you must understand is a different world now from 3 years ago. Theres a lot of other options and EMB and DEVEX are competitors , even RO and many thirdy party are. We, delphi developers must face it soon or later.
Donald wrote:
> … EMB and DEVEX are competitors
In which area?
@Doanld: I do not believe this swan song, hear it far to often
@Ronald: Skins? That's the only one I can think of
@Ronald In which area?
In mobile development, off course. Just take a tour on this web site and get out the delphi burble…
@Gernot: Yes, Skin and Ribbon are available in Delphi, but that is not really comparable with what DevExpress have.
@Donald: Isn't the DevExpress mobile part web based on .NET?
Is it possible to use the HTML JS WIDGETS into FireMonkey Mobile Client or HTML5 Builder?
@Ronald: Isn't the DevExpress mobile part web based on .NET?
The offer other options with JS and HTML5
@Christophe i have RAD version including HTML5 BUILDER and dont see any movement there for years.
OTOH, theres a lot of free and better options to work with JS and HTML5, using devextreme seems like a good idea
http://js.devexpress.com/
@Donald:
I see, thanks.
But i think we Delphi guys aren't here in this forum asking for Firemonkey, if we prefer web based application.
You can easily go from web mobile to native using phone gap. Hey! Is not the same solution promoted for HTML5 Builder and EMB? :P
Gernot: Moving from VCL to FMX is certainly not 'impossible' and in fact is pretty much equivalent to a conversion from .NET to VCL. The issue is not the language, it's the run-time of the platform. FMX and VCL are not the same run-time, they do not have the same API, they do not have the same features, they use a different graphical interface, a different class model, etc, etc.
Also we just don't have the extra resources. We have a great Delphi dev team; they do some stellar work in maintaining and expanding our VCL offering. I'm not just saying that: all you need to do is look at the new features and functionality that has been added to DevExpress VCL since we converted to a subscription model to see the quality and breadth of the new capabilities.
But in a similar ratio to our customer base, the large majority of our developers are C# and JavaScript devs. It's not like we have a group of Delphi devs there just twiddling thumbs wondering what to do. We either stop developing the VCL product (which we can't do -- it's a subscription, remember -- people are expecting meaningful updates), or we hire and create a new FMX team (which becomes a business decision -- X developers at $Y salary per year means we have to sell Z copies of the final product to break even/make money). And the value of that proposition is just not clear from where I am.
Cheers, Julian
Julian: big thank you for the constructive discussion.
VCL->FMX: fully agree with your statement
Extra resources: understood. I think everyone here agrees on the extraordinary work done. And since none of us has the power of the FED to print money…
Customer base: that is the interesting aspect: as a CTO you are the one together with your peers to decide on this and or X times Y times Z for break even is a solid one from a business perspective. Based on your subscription statement and the many comments here I think that you have a very loyal developer community (lets call them YY) who values all those efforts and would love to expand their product to the OSX platform for a start. So for a start you may have YY-20% (lets say 20% would not want to use FMX/OSX) who might be willing to go for an extra subscription. Would this be a starting point for an initial calculation?
And maybe you would be willing to consider acquiring (unfortunately another monetary decision) something more mature e.g. FirePower from Woll2Woll to get a kick-start like you did with CodeRush. ou might have a solid business case here as many of us where primarily interested in a solid FMX Grid for the start.
That's just my take from a customer perspective
Cheers, Gernot
Hi Julian
Thank you for the feedback.
I think the main frustration that everyone is feeling is that we have become comfortable, perhaps even lazy when relying on third party products, and lets face it, us Delphi guys can be very stubborn at times so the prospect of learning new third party components is not something we do very happily.
You are not alone with your stance on FM, Rem Objects for example has flat out REFUSED to support the new compiler despite much begging and pleading from its customer base, and i can assure you that I know many people who will not be renewing their subscriptions, I just don't want the same to happen here.
I will keep a watch on the forums to see if/when anything changes.
Thanks again
Donovan Boddy
Julian,
Thanks for your explanation - though it doesn't bode well for FMX in the future, it does leave the door slightly ajar.
Something I would be interested in knowing - FMX uses much different technologies from VCL, but many features seem to be similar to C#. It may be worth considering if porting from C# to FMX is more doable than from VCL to FMX. If necessary, perhaps we could lobby Embarcadero to expand the FMX library in certain directions that would make porting from C# more of a mechanical process than a full-on translation. If even 50% of the code base could be mechanically ported, it may tip the scales of economics, and perhaps win you a greater share of the Delphi / C++ Builder market - after all, your .Net offering even exceeds the quality of your VCL controls - that would have to make it compelling to Delphi / C++ Builder users.
I consider DevExpress VCL and Digital Metaphors Report Builder the 2 bigggest Delphi 3rd party components. Report Builder 16 made for the 1st time a step towards mobile apps in Delphi (if i am not wrong in reading the what's new stuff: http://www.digital-metaphors.com:8080/General/What's_New/RB_16). By discussing with my peers I said. "DevExpress is still on the good-old-VCL side only, until DX makes the move I won't trust Firemonkey and Mobile with Delphi". I think it makes sense.
Hi,
What does devexpress think about firemonkey?
It is really very important subject for delphi developers.
We know that you can not say very specific about firemonkey. But we want to know somethings about devexpress strategy about firemonkey.
Firemonkey is not kylix or linux. We know past.
But in delphi writing multi platform application is most important specially on mobile.
You have mobile development of course, but jscript is not real programming language i think.
Devexpress is making wonderful things on devextreme, But we are waiting components and modern components on firemonkey. Devexpress realize that mobile application that showed us on devextreme. And now waiting that on delphi platform.
Best Regards
Hello Cem,
As Julian mentioned above, until we announce something officially, like a beta or an actual product, please assume that we will not be supporting FireMonkey. Although we continue testing FireMonkey to monitor its capabilities (APIs, performance, etc.), we are not currently developing any controls/frameworks/libraries for it.
Hi
I consider it essential to support mobile moving forward. Our desktop product is built around your components. Embarcadero's vision is to support all platforms from one code base (look at XE7's support for property differences between platforms). This strategy seems to be a pathway we'd like to follow.
While I appreciate that mobile features maybe should not be as full-featured as our desktop version, I am forced to look at a firemonkey-based grid/pivot from another third party. This effectively precludes us from using any Devexpress components for mobile, and suddenly we are looking at maintaining another set of code.
We love the VCL component suite and have more Delphi skills than .NET, so starting again with a language that we are not familiar with does not appeal, as this will slow down the pace of development as well as ongoing maintenance. Disappointed to hear that Firemonkey support will not be in the next version of the VCL component suite either.
I think its important to note the comment above. Delphi developers need to know your strategy and timing. I feel that the Firemonkey 'wait and see' policy needs to change.
I have nothing to add to the comments but just wanted to also register my disappointment with the current DevEx stance on this.
And My vote for the Jeff Whiteside comment.
And My vote for the Jeff Whiteside comment.
And My vote for the Jeff Whiteside comment.
I agree with Jeff Whiteside's comment. We've recently purchased XE7 and we would be glad to have DevExpress controls also for FM apps, in next years.
From our point, "must have controls" are: grids, pivotgrids, charts…
Why don't you consider to start with a really restricted release that supports FM? (I mean 2 or 3 controls, just to have a first feedback from customers).
Hope to read something about FM in 2015 roadmap!
Fabrizio.
CEM KOPUZ +1
We will wait your support for Firemonkey, Because you have best vcl market products as me.
Delphi XE7 or XE8 ++ DevExpress VCl for mobile ~= very nice solution…
Best Regards,
FK
Just upgraded…
I have had a wonderful experience using your components…
You would absolutely steal and monopolise the market if you release these components for the Firemonkey Framework.
Tell the truth, you guys are secretly building new components for FMX… I'll keep my eye out for that BETA version…
God Bless and keep up the good work…
Also I agree with Jeff Whiteside comment ;)
A new DevExpress Grid will be avaiable to Xamarin, not Delphi.
https://www.devexpress.com/Products/Xamarin/
Tamarin is a monkey species, not Xamarin. Besides there is no fire! ;)
@Julian You keep talking about your other mobile solutions. I don't think you will get many takers from this thread. Let me tell you why:
Most Delphi developers have been at it for > 10 years - they are experts.
I have more than 20 years in coding Pascal. I have tried other languages, I have a soft spot for Python and it's Free so there is no risk, but I wouldn't seriously develop in it - maybe as a scripting adjunct to Delphi. I tried C# and found it slow to develop in - for slightly more flexibility the language became significantly more convoluted. It took me twice as long to code for it than for Delphi. It could be a lack of experience, but that is the point. Why would expert Delphi developers want to become novice Xamarin/JS/C# developers when there is obviously options in Delphi that meet their development needs?
Please don't ask us to give up our expertise because Xamarin is the latest buzz-word. Anyone who has stuck at Delphi this long has seen plenty of these languages pop-up, get more popular than Delphi, then die. (Anyone remember Ruby?)
The point is, there are a LOT of people on this thread asking for any sign of good faith when it comes to FireMonkey. I want it for Windows: OSX, iOS and Android would be bonuses. The new graphics libraries and 3D capabilities in FireMonkey are compelling, but right now I am stuck in VCL land and have to hack FireMonkey forms into my app for the graphics (BTW your RTTIInspector works brilliantly with FMX controls through a hacked Firemonkey form). If your controls were in FMX I would swap to FMX in a minute.
P.S. I also +1 Jeff Whiteside's comments. I am fully developing mobile apps including companion apps to VCL apps that use DevExpress controls.
I really think you need to find out just how much support there is for DevExpress FM. If the commenters in this thread are all there is then I quite understand your current stance. If it is closer to 80% of the Delphi community, and if we are willing to pay more for adding FireMonkey would that change your stance? Personally I would pay 50% on top of my VCL subscription for a set of FireMonkey controls - perhaps more depending on what was included (must haves are Ribbon and Grid).
FireMonkey is just crap at the moment. And I don't see Embarcadero is capable of changing this. There is no way in developing a serious business app using firemonkey at the moment. The UI of a business app rendered in OpenGL 3D on a mobile device? Come on guys, that must be a joke! No support for Android on Intel platform. Embarcadero not capable of delivering needed updates in time as for the universal apps on iOS since February. Sorry guys, if you want to develop for mobile platforms, then choose Xamarin, RemObjects or use plain HTML5 and JavaScript, but forget about Delphi.
I'm very satisfied that DevExpress is concentrating on the VCL, because that's it what 99% of the Delphi developers are doing!
@Denis:
> The UI of a business app rendered in OpenGL 3D on a mobile device? Come on guys, that must be a joke!
This statement based on what experiences?
>Sorry guys, if you want to develop for mobile platforms,
>then choose Xamarin, RemObjects
Is that real cross platform? If you use Delphi, you have to start from the scratch.
>or use plain HTML5 and JavaScript, but forget about Delphi.
Great! Nearly every month a new browser and Framework update,
program code on client and server side. No DB on the device and many more.
We came from Delphi, we are spoiled.
> I'm very satisfied that DevExpress is concentrating on the VCL,
Really? The devexpress homepage list the VCL part at the last point, after Winforms, ASP.NET, WPF, XAML and HTML5.
@Denis:
You are really flirting with hypocrisy in your comments: February to April is 2 months and XE8 - released today - supports iOS 64 and 32 bit universal apps, meanwhile FireMonkey has been around for more than 4 years without DevExpress support: who is "serious" and who is not? What is your reasoning? What is your standard?
"Android on Intel" - It seems that you want to cite corner cases as foundational reasons to avoid Delphi. I have yet to see any Android on Intel devices - they don't seem mainstream to me, and when they are I expect Delphi will be there.
As for your other assertions, they seem more like personal preferences - that's fine, have your opinion but presenting them as facts we should all believe? Please don't take us for fools, nor try to derail the focus of this question from the original question: When will DevExpress release FireMonkey components?
I admit, the documentation could be better, but I see FireMonkey going from strength to strength as far as its capabilities and maturity are concerned.
@Ronald:
There are numerous examples of the poor performance of firemonkey on mobile devices and that it is draining the battery.
If you want cross-platform including desktop then choosing Delphi is the worst you can do.
RemObjects does real cross-platform. And the language is heavy Delphi related, so you don't need to start from scratch.
If you do mobile app development with HTML5 and JS, you have a client and server side. The server side does the DB work, the client only caches your data. And for this client data you have numerous options to store it including local databases.
DevExpress lists VCL as the last point, because the other products are more popular and have a wider user base. The DevExpress VCL components are the most mature components you can get. I don't need a flood of new components each month which are implemented poorly, like a competitor does it (you all know the name?).
@Scott:
Not able to update an app in the iOS app store for two month is hypocrisy for you? Sorry, but that's business critical for some companies. And Embarcadero is the only one who is delaying this needed update to the next major release. All other including Xamarin and RemObjects delivered it in time.
"Android on Intel" gains market share from month to month. And as a developer I can't ignore this platform when I'm developing for Android. No user will understand that: If they bought the app for Android, they want the app to run on their machine!
FireMonkey has been there for 4 years, yes you are right. And Embarcadero isn't capable to make that framework stable. And with every major release there is a new structure. If you were the first using FireMonkey from beginning you would have been forced to rewrite your app with every new Delphi release. Think of DevExpress, if they had released a grid component for FireMonkey 1, they had to rewrite it, rewrite it, rewrite it… DevExpress examined this and decided to not support it at the moment, which is absolutely reasonable. No one is seriously using FireMonkey to develop business apps. No one needs another funky cross-platform clock app built using FireMonkey, but that's all FireMonkey can do at the moment. If FireMonkey is that good, why in the world isn't Embarcadero delivering business UI components for it?
@Denis:
> Not able to update an app in the iOS app store for two month is hypocrisy for you?
>Sorry, but that's business critical for some companies
That's not correct. I quote from apple: "64-bit and iOS 8 Requirements for New Apps – Starting February 1, 2015, …"
That mean, you can update existing project, but you cant submit a new app.
> … And Embarcadero isn't capable to make that framework stable.
This isn't my experience.
> No one is seriously using FireMonkey to develop business apps.
Sorry, I'm doing that seriously for MacOX, Android and iOS.
But unfortunately without DevExpress components, at this moment.
>If FireMonkey is that good, why in the world isn't Embarcadero delivering business UI components for it?
That's a good question! Maybe there are to many "Denis" out there, telling strange stories.
Fortunately, there are 3rd party components for FMX, but I use DevExpress for a very long time and hope to cover that area too.
@Ronald:
Not capable of releasing new apps for the app store is OK for you? Then you are one of the few, who doesn't care.
Please read through the forums, especially german speaking forums like delphipraxis and you'll see, that nearly all developers who use FM have their problems with it.
Why do you use DevExpress? Because you are expecting quality! And DevExpress doesn't deliver components for a platform which isn't stable.
Embarcadero isn't developing UI components for FireMonkey, because they don't trust their own framework to stand in a business app field.
@Denis
> Not capable of releasing new apps for the app store is OK for you? Then you are one of the few, who doesn't care.
Wait Denis, dont be so fast. If your deadline of your new app is between Feb. 1st and the release date of XE8 you can join the beta program:
http://community.embarcadero.com/index.php/blogs/entry/if-you-are-doing-ios-development-join-the-beta-to-get-access-to-the-64-bit-toolchain
so Embarcadero cares about you.
>Please read through the forums, especially german speaking forums like delphipraxis and you'll see,
>that nearly all developers who use FM have their problems with it.
Well, If I read your postings here, I would assume, that nothing is working in FMX and all in all is a fault.
From my POV, this is not true.
@Denis:
No, I made it plain where you were "flirting with hypocrisy" - it is in demanding immediate compliance from Embarcadero while in the very same post letting DevExpress off the hook for a 4+ year delay in compliance. As I said: "What is your reasoning? What is your standard?". Please explain why unlimited delays is fine on the one hand, while demanding immediate compliance on the other.
Now you add further double standards: Apple, by your own admission required changes just this February that you seem fine with. Owning Mac Laptops I notice how often applications only run on certain releases of OSX - try to get a third party browser that runs on Leopard now. If the API for OSX changes sufficiently to destroy backwards compatibility why does anyone still buy a Mac? Do the developers of these apps purposefully make their apps run on only one point release, or do they need to recode for each new release because of API changes? Again, why do you measure Apple with one standard and Embarcadero with another?
Please note that Android on Intel is on the Delphi 2015 roadmap. As I suggested earlier, by the time the platform is sufficiently popular to warrant targeting, Delphi will target it. Please don't add another double standard to the list by insisting that emerging technologies should be picked up immediately by Embarcadero while DevExpress should continue to ignore a framework that is already well established and growing stronger with each release. Besides, I am not sure what Android on Intel has to do with DevExpress supporting FireMonkey.
Ronald seems to have covered most of your other statements, but I will second his comments: I also seriously develop in FireMonkey. I suspect most of the posters on this thread develop seriously in FireMonkey or it would have died a long time ago, yet here we are 3 years after the initial post and still just as passionate (if not more so).
I am sure your experience is real for you, but please realise that for me and many others FireMonkey is a living framework that we actively use - what we are asking for in this thread is the amazing controls that we know DevExpress can deliver to target the FireMonkey framework.
I trust that sooner or later Julian will give the nod; most of us on this thread are hoping for sooner rather than later. In the meantime I suggest the Delphi Haters forum may be a better place to vent your frustrations. If you want to be constructive I would be happy to read your next comment here - in particular I would like to know what business UI components are you wanting / expecting? If you detail them here perhaps DevExpress could develop them once FireMonkey is supported. As you point out - those controls are in white space right now, so it may be a great opportunity for DevExpress.
@Scott:
>>No, I made it plain where you were "flirting with hypocrisy" - it is in demanding immediate compliance from Embarcadero
>>while in the very same post letting DevExpress off the hook for a 4+ year delay in compliance.
There is an important difference: Embarcadero is the developer of FireMonkey. And if it doesn't work, they have to correct it. DevExpress is not forced to support FMX, it's not their product nor get they money from Embarcadero.
Don't speak about Delphi Roadmaps: As nearly all Delphi developers we are frustrated about those silly roadmaps Embarcadero publishes. It would be fine, if they never released such roadmaps, because you can't trust them.
Which UI components I mean? Perhaps a functional grid control, which Embarcadero isn't able to develop for years. The TDBGrid is just a joke.
Please accept DevExpress' reasonable opinion, that there is currently no market for FireMonkey. And as I would add, there will never be any… They just rename the product to AppMethod and raise the price for less functionality. In the same time, Microsoft is releasing a full packaged development solution for free (Visual Studio Community Edition), even for commercial use.
@Denis:
Thanks for clarifying. By your same argument FMX is not forced to comply with Apple: Embarcadero doesn't get paid by Apple either. FMX works perfectly well on all other platforms, Embarcadero provide compliance with iOS because we (the customers) want it. The difference is that Embarcadero doesn't want to be out of compliance with iOS, so they corrected it. Users were already informed that compatibility with new platforms and OS releases would be provided with new half yearly releases. Anyone needing early compatibility could join the Beta program; now that XE8 is released I can tell you that Delphi had Universal App compliance in February for those in the Beta.
It is true, we cannot entirely trust roadmaps - this is true for any roadmap (even physical ones). Intel were late in releasing Broadwell, and as such Microsoft had to use Haswell in the Surface Pro 3. Things happen and no-one is immune. Having said that, check out the features released in XE8 against the published 2015 roadmap and the majority of features are in the early 2015 release. This adds credibility to the goal of fulfilling the others in the later release, including your Android on Intel requirement.
So you want Embarcadero to provide a FMX Quantum Grid? I think you are confused. For the 20 years since Delphi was released I have never seen them deliver heavy duty controls. They deliver basic controls, the language, and infrastructure; then they rely on third parties to develop richer controls. This is the history of DevExpress - they started out by selling the Quantum Grid for Delphi.
Don't expect further responses from me. I don't feed trolls and your last paragraph just revealed your hand.
@Scott
I just said the truth:
Just compare the features of AppMethod and RAD Studio and you will see that AppMethod customers pay more for less functionality.
Embarcadero doesn't provide iOS support, because they are forced to. It's a matter of providing cross platform features. And if they do so, one may expect that they deliver updates in time with framework changes as all other companies do.
And sorry, obviously you are the only developer who delivers software to customers built with beta versions of development tools. Professional software devlopers like me don't do that and it's good advise especially regarding Delphi. With every new major release new problems are discovered. I can tell you stories about the dbExpress framework, for example. It shows that the developers at Embarcadero are of low quality.
And that's one reason why they are not capable of providing a functional grid component. I don't expect DevExpress quality and features, but a set of base components which are useful. Take for example their ribbon component, it's practically useless and full of bugs. And they will never add any feature to it. That's the difference to DevExpress and also Microsoft who are providing business components wth Visual Studio which you can actual use.
@Denis: if MS is so much better then why have you stayed with Delphi? Make a professional decision and Migrate to C# and DevExpress and stop this useless discussion.
Don't expect further responses from me. I don't feed trolls except in games
I use both: Delphi for legacy projects and Visual Studio for new projects.
I support the opinions of @Scott and @Gernot.
Our company have been delivering quality solutions with VCL Delphi in Windows and Firemonkey for iOS for years.
Our products are running reliably in thousands of installations (some of them with more han 700 concurrent users accessing to an oracle db).
We like the flexibility of the Firemonkey platform which has evolved into a powerful solution for business applications.
To have a good opinion about Firemonkey a programmer has to put effort in learning the new sdk. Don't you remember when you started using the VCL?
We can say that, with Firemonkey, you can deliver quality apps in a fraction of the time needed by other platforms we've used (XCode and Winforms).
Christen
CTO
In addition to our last comment I would like to post the following press release: http://www.embarcadero.com/es/press-releases/tkc-corporation-adopts-delphi-xe-series-to-develop-its-next-generation-taxation-and-accounting-systems
As you can see, this supports our previous arguments. Every day more and more companies are moving this way.
@Julian, please, migrate your superb component set to Firemonkey.
Desktop should be your primary goal but tablets have enough surface to show grids. On phones, the editors and layout control subset would also be very helpful.
Christen
CTO
definitely devexpress is the best one, i hope that dev support firemonkey desktop or introduce right to left language support in the vcl counterpart
@TECNOLOGIA PRO INFORMATICA:
The opposite is true. More and more companies are quitting Delphi and are moving the Visual Studio / Xamarin path.
An interesting article how Embarcadero "manages" quality of their products and how frustrated developers are these days:
http://www.tpersistent.com/?p=1088
@Denis:
>The opposite is true. More and more companies are quitting Delphi and are moving the Visual Studio / Xamarin path.
Read this: http://www.itwriting.com/blog/5423-cross-platform-windows-and-mac-lifts-delphi-sales-by-54.html
>An interesting article how Embarcadero "manages" quality of their products and how frustrated developers are these days:
It just a verse of the endless: Delphi-is-dead song? Based on nothing important.
@Ronald:
While I appreciate your comments, please don't feed the troll. He is off topic and wants to see who will take his bait. We all know that programming languages are treated like football teams; some people will say anything and somehow this is supposed to be proof of something.
The facts remain that:
A) we use Delphi,
B) we want FireMonkey supported,
C) there are many of us,
D) we use FireMonkey for cross-platform development, and
E) others do too
This is our request, we are here, we are asking, and it is irrelevant if someone somewhere doesn't like Delphi anymore BECAUSE we are still here. Denis is even less relevant because he is a troll who has found a forum where he cannot be modded down.
@Scott:
Who are you that you can judge me? Please don't get personal!
I like Delphi, I always liked it. But I don't like how the product is managed. It started with Borland/Inprise, got even worse with CodeGear and now Embarcadero. They all don't understand what is needed to make Delphi successful. And they don't listen to the developers. XE8 is no exception here. Castalia not usable, slower list/array handling, questionable IDE decisions. If you don't trust me, then please go through the growing list of error reportings on Google+, for example.
And the newest decision of Embarcadero: Now we have to pay for hotfixes. What the f*ck? Delivering an unstable, not usable product and charging the customer for fixing the bugs? Delphi is loosing long term developers which form the base, which once made Delphi strong. The day will come, when the last developers turns their heads and Embarcadero squeezed out the last penny from us all.
+1 Scott van der Linden
and I like the way from Inprise to CodeGear to Embarcadero, I think its getting better.
I also support the opinions of @Scott and @Gernot.
We develop business software and have been using Delphi for over 15 years. Although we have also .NET applications, our main application are still developed with Delphi and we plan to do mobile development in the next months.
We have been doing some tests regarding FireMonkey and we can confirm that the platform is evolving. We recommend it for business applications. We have been using Devexpress also for a long time and we would really like to use the same or similar components for our Mobile/Tablet business applications.
+1 Scott van der Linden
I would also agree that Firemonkey has reached a level that it can now really be used for developing mobile apps. I have developed published apps with it for both iphone and android. It would be great if DevEx would now jump on the bandwagon as there is still no real competition out there.
I think we have to face some facts:
- Julian made a business decision he is either not willing to reconsider or not keeping us informed about planned development (despite many questions)
- this fits the DevEx decision to discontinue CodeRush for Delphi long ago
- DevEx is treating Delphi VCL customers with courtesy, but 2nd rank to their other business (we get the breadcrumbs from .Net development)
- this thread is going on for more than 3 years without movement on Devex side
What do I as a longstanding, loyal customer think about that? - life moves on, business moves on and there is no point in waiting for something that may never show up
- DevEx is not the only bride to marry, it actually becoming an developers bride which becomes a legacy
- other company develop great FMX products (TMS, Woll2Woll) with way less resources at fair prices
- those companies do offer great support with limited resources and listen to their customers
- DevEx has chosen a path which does not help me
and finally: - I will stay a Delphi programmer!!!
What is my conclusion from that? - I need to go where my customers need me
- this does not allow for a DevEx legacy
- when my subscription runs out (early 2016), DevEx looses a loyal customer (using DevEx components since Delphi 5)
- if this happens frequently enough, they may rethink their position, but that may be too late to get the lost customers back
- I will do FMX development with other 3rd party components
just my 5cent
Gernot (and others, recently)
I hear and totally accept what you are saying. If I were in your shoes and were contemplating designing/writing mobile apps using RAD Studio and the FireMonkey chain, I'd say the same things. (Mind you, I'd do HTML5/JavaScript, but that's just me. Have you seen the new functionality in DevExtreme v15.1?)
Nevertheless, our position has not changed: whether you agree with our decision or not, for us as a company, doing what we do, it makes absolute business sense to pursue a market where we are already well established, and that is an order of magnitude (and more) greater than the Delphi one. That doesn't mean that we are abandoning VCL and Delphi, far from it -- we have to amazing new features coming out in v15.1 (how about the new spreadsheet and its engine being part of the grid packs sound?) -- but a FireMonkey suite of controls is just *not* the best use of our time, resources, and money.
Cheers, Julian
Gernot and Julian,
This situation is entirely predictable, as is the long term consequence (Julian, I may have sent you an email about it a year or more ago). This is how it plays out:
- Delphi developers are doing more FireMonkey
- When (as is quite often the case) there is a desktop app as well as a mobile companion app to write, the user is faced with two choices: A) Do a VCL desktop app and live with the difficulties of half-shared code (Julian, your response to this is to use NO shared code) in order to continue using DevExpress components, or B) Do all development in FireMonkey and find a component vendor that supports FireMonkey across the board.
- Many of these alternate vendors also offer their components for VCL making them a one-stop shop, allowing developers use a common component API, and possibly getting a discount.
- This will cause some percentage of existing DevExpress VCL subscriptions to drop off, further exacerbating the ratio of .Net to Delphi, reducing Delphi based income for you.
- This syphoning of Delphi subscriptions will continue to a point where you must either subsidise VCL development from .Net or cease supporting it.
- Ceasing support will kill off whatever remains of this branch of the business within a year of that decision.
Julian,
Unfortunately it appears that you are quite prepared to accept this long term consequence - as you point out: VCL is less than 10% of your income, and as you keep going down this path it will become less significant still.
I have chosen to combine VCL and FireMonkey for my development, but I have not yet committed to a third party FireMonkey component vendor (hoping that it would be DevExpress), so right now my apps use Delphi controls for FireMonkey.
More unfortunately as customers leave it further cements your stance that there will be no FireMonkey support. I fear you have already "crossed the Rubicon".
Scott,
I think you put it very nicely - The Rubicon has most likely been crossed
@Julian
Your statement is the most honest you put on this topic for a very long time. Still I do not see why I should move to your favourite toy in DevExtreme especially since database support is extremely important for my customers and I have not seen any real good database example for the DevExtreme and the underlying tools (maybe you can direct me to one - I need SQLite a lot).
But overall I would put my final words here as follows:
- Thanks to DevEx (and Julian) for a great time with VCL and your components
- my subscription will not be renewed (I would consider a switch to DevExtreme only if I get some good database support)
- thanks for your honesty (even though it came very late)
- and some disappointment as you did not trust your customers more in releasing this info earlier (feels like milking the cow and I do not like to be the cow) or giving them a good option for moving to your favourite tools
Refering to "milking the cow". What does Embarcadero do with Delphi developers?
I can fully understand Julian's point here and it leads to what I wrote earlier in this thread. VCL is only a fraction of the business of DevExpress, because Delphi is only a fraction of the whole development tools market. Do you want them to invest the same man power to develop the Delphi tools as they do for WinForms, WPF, DevExtreme? DevExpress is an company which needs to generate sales to pay their employees. Everybody has to accept that. The quality of DevExpress stands out and is far beyond the quality of TMS and other tools vendors.
Denis,
I really love on everything where you can start bashing Embarcadero. Maybe you should open your special thread for this.
Milking the cow is very different here: I subscribed to Delphi years ago and I subscribed to DevEx. The difference is that Delphi is continuing while DevEx is pulling out of the market.
I respectfully disagree with your statement regarding TMS and others: there is continue development and continued support for FMX and VCL and in my experience their dedication and support is equal (if not better nowadays) to DevEx.
Gernot, Is it really worth moaning about this further? DevEx are not responsible for the future of Delphi, if FM becomes more popular!?! then I'm sure they will be forced to develop something, until then as you say there are other people developing components to use!
Looking back on the thread, they did say years ago that did not have the resource spare to work on it, so I'm not sure why you are so surprised?
Julian, Sense prevails - now lets port the cool .net components over to VCL…
Darren,
that is a misunderstanding: there was no moaning intended.
But I fear that you misunderstood Julian: for now VCL will be supported.
My interpretation (and hopefully for you this is wrong) is that when VCL subscriptions decline DevEx will no longer use their sparse resources to support VCL. This will leave you with legacy code and a lot of developing to catch up.
As I said, no moaning intended and I cross my fingers for you that you will not end up in any worst case scenario
I understand Julian,
But please; look at support center:
on Windows 8 XAML, last 30 supports are about 3 months ago,
on Silverlight, last 30 supports are 2 weeks ago,
on Xamarin, last 30 supports are 2 months ago,
on IOS Native, last 30 supports are 2 years ago.
I think Firemonkey framework must more good performance over all of them.
Give a chance delphi again.
Best Regards,
Julian,
VCL v15.1 is out and no word about Firemonkey.
Game is over. We, and at least three companies I know, have taken the decisión to continue without Devexpress.
It's a pity because you have a superb component set for the VCL.
Life continues and other companies offer quite good tools and support.
As Gernot said, sometime in the (not very far) future Devexpress VCL code will be legacy. The fact is that more and more companies are moving onto the multiplatform mobile devices market.
Good luck to Devexpress
I don't think, that the DevExpress VCL will vanish away. It has a broad user base and as long as Delphi lives, there will be support by DevExpress. Look how vital the WinForms section of DevExpress is. Not everybody is moving cross-platform, because desktop clients are still and will be strong.
I wonder how many discouraged d7/d2007 developers (including me) won't renew their vcl subscription this year due to missing support of their ide
Make that overdue upgrade to your IDE and you can use DevExpress VCL. Sorry, but those IDE's are that old, nobody should complain about it. DevExpress can now use new language features to make the product robust and performant. Those are the same type users who complain about dropped support for old IDE's who demand support for the latest, less used technologies like FireMonkey.
Denis, I'm not going to argue my point as it is off-topic here but even some devex developers claim that generics bring their problems. I don't need unicode and see no point to upgrade just for the sake of upgrade itself and at the price of more problems. btw I'm the one down-voted this request
It's not only about generics. It's the whole core of RTL which makes it impossible to support those old IDE's and implement new feature at the same time. It isn't done with some IFDEF's here and some IFDEF's there.
To remind everyone, this support ticket is about FireMonkey support. Sorry and all that, but I am not in the mood to allow thread drift to other topics. I am authorizing our support team to delete any such future posts immediately without warning or apology. OK?
@PROTECHNICA: "VCL v15.1 is out and no word about FireMonkey." You must have missed it: I have stated unequivocally that we are not doing any work to support FireMonkey. In the webinar I presented a couple of days ago on What's New in VCL v15.1 (which is now available on our YouTube channel) I had a slide that stated "no FireMonkey". I really don't know how to tell you in any plainer terms. So, good luck with your future endeavors.
Cheers, Julian
Interesting though that DevEx specifically mentioned Firemonkey in the recent survey!
I did the survey about Firemonkey. Can we have some feedback about the result. Or is the conclusion that it will stay on 'no FireMonkey' in the future.
The text of the email asking us to fill in the survey said the following so I am very hopeful about this:
Though we are not in a position to describe the exact products we hope to release for the FireMonkey platform, we do want to assure you that we are working to add FireMonkey products to our portfolio.
+1, please plan new product for FireMonkey, I did move littie our sub-app to multi-platform
Based on your recent survey about firemonkey, are you planning something for your imminent 16.2 release ?
Thanks, to give us some feed back
Firemonkey controls are not planned for 16.2. As for future versions, we have not decided yet.
Yes, same here. Would be very nice to at least have a grid and some editorson FMX.
acutally they are working as posted here:
https://www.devexpress.com/Support/Center/Question/Details/T515964/any-news-on-firemonkey
+1 for Firemonkey & Direct X for VCL
8 years, you say release will be in 2019 and still waiting… Whats the problem? I pay 8 years your subscription based on your promises. How much time must wait for that?
We are testing our FireMonkey Beta right now. However, there are still many problems to solve. I hope we will be able to release it soon.
We all understand the complexity of doing this, and the high standards that DevEx strive to achieve but, please, just keep us updated on progress.
I'm holding the shampain!!! <vbg>
Hey
9 month later…
Are there any news?
I will switch from Visual Basic .Net to Delphi FMX
Could you please give some update.
THX
Did you read this?
https://community.devexpress.com/blogs/ctodx/archive/2020/12/02/fmx-grid-future-plans.aspx
yeah, we read the comment. Great to be so supported for devexpress. years paying subscriptions and always good news. I have this library in 10 mobile app. now i must replace that. the better part is working as expected. Thanks devpexpress!